Mick West and Marik von Rennenkampff just had an interesting debate in a recent Jesse Michels video about some of the most famous UFO videos, including newly surfaced footage from Iraq. Mick is sticking to his theory that these are just camera glitches or illusions—basically, nothing out of the ordinary. Marik, on the other hand, is calling out experts who think those simple explanations don’t cut it. He’s pointing to more complex factors that might actually support the idea there’s something bigger at play.

It’s a classic "I’ve got proof, you’ve got doubts" situation, but the real kicker is whether we’ll ever get definitive proof of UFOs, or if it’s all just going to stay hidden behind the veil of classified government secrets.